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and then we've got a much more

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authoritative commentary from mystic

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Medusa the astrologer in there in the

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news limited newspapers saying the moon

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in this form has the power to disrupt

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bourgeois values no that's always good

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for me to the last but there's no

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science to that at all because it says

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it's a full moon in Scorpio side on

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Earth's all sorts of buried

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psychological treasure secret desires

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and longing for authenticity you're

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telling me that's not true well I'm

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going to stick to the science and the

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science says there's nothing to that

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whatsoever it's good for a laugh that's

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about it well I Susan I think that but

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the voyage I take it too seriously yes

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Jeff I yeah the mystic Medusa column

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talking about so full moon are nothing

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all sorts of very psychological treasure

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secret desires and longing for

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authenticity those who've worked in

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newspapers did tell me that quite a few

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of those astrological columns are made

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up will be quite a laugh wouldn't it

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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yes it's the skeptics on an episode

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number 185 for the sixth of May 2012

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Richard Saunders here with you coming to

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you this week from the mind body spirit

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or mind-body wallet festival as we call

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it here in Sydney and just before the

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introduction you heard jeff wyatt from

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the sydney observatory talking to john

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stanley on a sydney radio 2ue and i

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think we can see what Jeff White's

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opinions of astrology are joining me at

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the mind-body-spirit festival and these

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reports will be coming up in the next

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few weeks is dr. Reggie hi dr. agent hi

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Richard happy to be here you know it's

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funny you should ask that Richard

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because as I walked up to the doors

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today and I looked upon the wonder that

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is the mind body while it came out of my

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mouth were the words I don't know why I

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keep putting myself through this and I

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think that I keep it somehow that just

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comes out of my mouth every time I come

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in but I keep coming back yeah me too I

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know what it's like and somebody else

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has come back it's may not look as has

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been said many times my mind is so open

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my brain is falling out a long time ago

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so I'm very anxious to see what's going

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on here in fact our listeners can

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compare what we do here with the dirty

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disbelievers because we're going to take

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a similar source material and make two

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different shows out of it which will

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have two different results and I know

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why you're here Richard because I asked

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you why you do this to yourself every

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year and you said Maynard it's what we

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do and is wise why do you climb the

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mountain because it's there right yeah

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exactly and what I want to know is that

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I was actually listening to a mysterious

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universe podcast earlier and they were

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just seeing photos of people that have

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had abduction experiences and comparing

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them to their photo and what they found

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out was the bigger the pendant the

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bigger the story so I'm just wondering

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if we just take it a bit of a look at

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people's pendants that they're wearing

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behind behind the counter and see if

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they've got a bigger claim to make the

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bigger the pendant the bigger the story

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I think it's interesting something will

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definitely look out for but coming up on

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today's skeptic zone we're going to kick

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off

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with the press release from the a Triple

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C the Australian competitions and

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Consumer Commission regarding action

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taken I we're guessing there was action

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taken against homeopathy plus and their

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claims of homeopathic prevention and

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treatment of whooping cough following

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that we have an interview with dr. ken

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harvey who will tell us more about that

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and i just noticed dr. raging i think

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you let me know this that homeopathy

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plus have put back the page in question

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slightly modified yeah we have a web

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archive of the page that was originally

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there that was the issue that the Erebus

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eat chalk which was that as you say

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homie i'll be possible claiming that

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homeopathy was an effective prevention

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for whooping cough now it has it did go

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down then it came back up with some

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slight modifications then it went down

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again now i don't know if it's back up

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again up this morning right but but they

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haven't removed the claims that

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homeopathy is effective as a treatment

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for whooping cough or they haven't as

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far as I can see it's very worrying but

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we'll find out more and after that

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interview with dr. ken harvey it's dr.

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Reggie reports what can the listeners

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look forward to this week dr. AG

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morecambe actually some recent draft

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proposals that the australian government

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has put forth to tighten the regulation

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of cam in australia and there's some

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really good news about the funding of

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cam by public private health funds and

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how the government's taking action

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against that so really exciting stuff

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great can't wait for dr. Reggie reports

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and following that it's Maynard's spooky

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action maintaining the pub and you're

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going to be speaking to Ian Bryce about

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free energy claims and then wandering

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around the pub and asking various

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skeptics and pub goers what they used to

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believe in with no were kids yeah that's

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right i was looking for a question and

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you popped one that i should pose two

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people richard that was it what did you

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believe the menu a child that you know

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you had trouble letting go of you or you

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remember particularly graphically

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remembering as a child and being very

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important to you many people came up

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with all sorts of things and let me tell

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you the name Erich von der

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Anakin will be mentioned more than once

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and leonard nimoy cool and shot and shot

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ma'am if any show with the shat man's a

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good show it's all coming up on the

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skipping zone well we're going to finish

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our coffee and take a big deep breath

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and walk through the doors of mind-body

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wallet wishes luck but for now please

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sit back and enjoy the skeptic zone this

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is a press release on the website of the

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a triple seen the Australian Competition

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and Consumer Commission wwa cccc ova you

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a triple c tackles homeopathy plus

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whooping cough claims homeopathy plus

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proprietary limited has removed

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representations from its website that

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the Australian Competition and Consumer

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Commission considered to be misleading

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and deceptive and that could lead to a

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serious health risk for consumers the

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representations were made on the

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whooping cough homeopathic prevention

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and treatment page which has since been

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removed from the homeopathy plus website

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the combination of these claims that the

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vaccine was ineffective and that the

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homeopathic remedies listed on the page

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were an alternative prevention and

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treatment regime elevated this matter to

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one of extreme concern a Triple C

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chairman rod Sims said the a Triple C

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examined content on the homeopathy plus

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website following a complaint from the

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medical profession the a Triple C

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considered that the homeopathy plus

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claims that the current whooping cough

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vaccine is dangerous and ineffective

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while the homeopathic remedy is a proven

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and safe alternative were likely to be

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misleading or deceptive reliance on

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these claims may influence consumers to

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avoid the whooping cough vaccine and

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rely solely on the home

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Oh pathak approach for treatment and

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prevention of whooping cough which is

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strongly discouraged by medical

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professionals whooping cough is a

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serious respiratory infection which can

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cause a long coughing illness and is

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life-threatening for babies the a Triple

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C result was considerably assisted by

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the engagement of the Therapeutic Goods

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Administration and New South Wales fair

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trading with homeopathy plus proprietary

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limited in resolving this matter the a

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Triple C will continue to monitor the

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homeopathy plus proprietary limited site

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for potential breaches of the Australian

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Consumer Law and joining me on the line

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now is ken harvey hello ken great now

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this is very interesting news and I have

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listeners have just heard the the press

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release from the a Triple C are you

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surprised that at last some action has

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been taken well know in a sense that

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we've been bringing a lot of pressure to

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bear and something had to give I mean

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homeopathy plus were complaints we've

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been putting in complaints since 2010

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about homeopathic immunization that

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they've been flogging it's really a

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classic illustration as the craziness of

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the Australian regulatory system the

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complaints go to the complaint

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resolution panel which administers a

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therapy good advertising code it's a

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good therapeutic goods advertising code

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and it's a good complaint revolution

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panel complaints get are held in fact on

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this one quite rightly they asked for

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attractions in 2010 that they requested

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that having homeopathy plus should

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retract their claims that homeopathic

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immunization was safe and effective and

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could replace conventional immunization

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but what happened which is what happens

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a lot with the complaint resolution

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panel they have no power to enforce

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their determinations and so

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the lady in question their Perry ops ii

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plus simply declined a request to put up

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a retraction indeed that was in the news

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in 2010 complaints kept on coming the

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and again there's some interesting stuff

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on the TGA website in theory if

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complaints are not completely if the

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complaint resolution panel

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determinations are not complied with

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they send it to therapy Goods

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Administration which is meant to be the

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ultimate regulator and last year the

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Therapeutic Goods Administration ordered

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compliance they wrote earlier ordering

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us and of course that was declined to

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nothing happened which again illustrates

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the limitations of the Therapeutic Goods

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Administration just as the complaint

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resolution panel has no power to enforce

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determinations neither has the

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Therapeutic Goods Administration well in

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theory they have they in theory they can

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bring in a criminal case there puts the

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public prosecutor in practice they've

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never ever ever done that um because

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fines are low and they've never felt

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that worthwhile putting putting in a

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brief for public prosecutor who had more

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important things to do and so this is a

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crazy situation we've had with the

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regulation of complementary medicines in

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Australia the the cutter is good the

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complaint resolution sounds good but the

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regulators are toothless Tigers and

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that's why more recently we've been

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trying to bring the Australian Consumer

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and competition a commission into it

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because they do have power they do have

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civil penalties fines and also they can

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have enforceable undertakings which you

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know the court can insist that they

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complied with and so eventually as I say

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I'm frustrated with all of this the most

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recent complaints were put to nature

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will see pointing out the three other

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regulators where impotence

277
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:10,559
paper tigers and that hello we knew via

278
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:12,720
CC hell no other things I played could

279
00:12:19,249 --> 00:12:14,279
they not do something about this

280
00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:19,259
craziness at which they have you and but

281
00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:22,769
again we're left with problems that yeah

282
00:12:26,749 --> 00:12:24,660
the HR will see will occasionally take

283
00:12:29,059 --> 00:12:26,759
on some of these problems they took on

284
00:12:31,609 --> 00:12:29,069
since aslam last year they took on power

285
00:12:33,609 --> 00:12:31,619
balance wristbands but as I say they've

286
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:33,619
got a lot of other responsibilities

287
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:37,170
corporate crime and other things and it

288
00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:39,569
emphasizes what we've been saying for 10

289
00:12:43,609 --> 00:12:42,569
years in Australia that it is a need to

290
00:12:45,379 --> 00:12:43,619
give the Therapeutic Goods

291
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:45,389
Administration end of the complaint

292
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:47,610
resolution panel that looks after the

293
00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:50,850
therapy codes advertising k to give them

294
00:12:55,189 --> 00:12:52,769
a sort of powers of nature Posse has

295
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,199
civil penalties easily applied civil

296
00:13:00,850 --> 00:12:57,839
penalties enforceable undertakings so

297
00:13:04,129 --> 00:13:00,860
that there can be rapid and effective

298
00:13:06,169 --> 00:13:04,139
penalties are the sort of craziness now

299
00:13:07,699 --> 00:13:06,179
we're still waiting for that Richard

300
00:13:10,549 --> 00:13:07,709
it's been ten years and numerous

301
00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:10,559
government reports and clearly there's a

302
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:12,809
lot of resistance from the industry yeah

303
00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:14,160
they're very happy with the situation

304
00:13:20,329 --> 00:13:17,160
the way it is but but yes it's good news

305
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:20,339
that we finally got homeopathy plus to

306
00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:23,040
remove their web pages of supporting

307
00:13:27,289 --> 00:13:24,809
homeopathic immunization against

308
00:13:32,210 --> 00:13:27,299
whooping cough and many other things in

309
00:13:34,429 --> 00:13:32,220
the past but it's just yet another small

310
00:13:36,859 --> 00:13:34,439
win you know in a long battle camp and

311
00:13:38,809 --> 00:13:36,869
we've got a long way to go now I noticed

312
00:13:40,879 --> 00:13:38,819
that there since the a Triple C put out

313
00:13:43,460 --> 00:13:40,889
their press release and we're recording

314
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:43,470
this on a friday and i think it was only

315
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:47,069
either yesterday or even even today that

316
00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:48,720
that press release went out says very

317
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:51,419
reason the australian newspapers picked

318
00:13:55,789 --> 00:13:53,730
up on the story and on their website

319
00:13:59,929 --> 00:13:55,799
they've published the story but also

320
00:14:02,179 --> 00:13:59,939
they've they have a comment from the

321
00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:02,189
director of homeopathy plus one Fran

322
00:14:07,939 --> 00:14:05,790
Sheffield who apparently is defiant and

323
00:14:10,729 --> 00:14:07,949
saying that she took down the

324
00:14:13,369 --> 00:14:10,739
information pending a review of the

325
00:14:15,739 --> 00:14:13,379
content and it could very well go up

326
00:14:17,809 --> 00:14:15,749
again once the review was completed and

327
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:17,819
the review will be conducted by herself

328
00:14:25,190 --> 00:14:21,120
and other homeopaths

329
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:25,200
hardly a review one would think look I

330
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:28,170
mean with the problem the problem with

331
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:30,810
some home tests we have here Australians

332
00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:34,560
in particular Victoria is that they

333
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:37,230
believe her like a religious faith in

334
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:43,440
homeopathic immunization the you know

335
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,010
they they cite dubious evidence there

336
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:49,680
was our Victorian home ippatsu some

337
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:52,320
incredible reason got PhD at Swinburne

338
00:14:58,519 --> 00:14:55,770
University on homeopathic immunization

339
00:15:02,810 --> 00:14:58,529
which was and she never have got this

340
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:02,820
page d makes a point that as we all know

341
00:15:07,550 --> 00:15:04,980
who examined students for the keeping

342
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,560
food for PhD is to select the right

343
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:09,839
examiners so if you select homeopathic

344
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:13,410
examiners then anything can get up this

345
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:16,860
guy essentially had followed up some of

346
00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:19,290
his own patients that he'd homeopathic

347
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,070
immunization asked the parents how how

348
00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:25,680
did their child fair didn't bother to

349
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:27,270
find whether that had conventional

350
00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:29,100
immunization as well as you sent me a

351
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:31,560
perfect immunization and and anyway came

352
00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:33,510
up with a ninety percent success rate

353
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:36,990
upon the preparation which yeah totally

354
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:40,050
lacked credibility I think he was made

355
00:15:44,329 --> 00:15:42,180
to put in here say in his summary which

356
00:15:46,579 --> 00:15:44,339
is available on our infants University

357
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:46,589
website that result had no statistical

358
00:15:53,390 --> 00:15:49,440
significance men haven't stopped over

359
00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:53,400
him or Fran Sheffield or many others who

360
00:15:59,170 --> 00:15:56,190
believed in homeopathic immunization

361
00:16:01,760 --> 00:15:59,180
which are obviously is very dangerous

362
00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:01,770
absolutely and it's it's a very good

363
00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:03,990
thing indeed that this has been brought

364
00:16:10,250 --> 00:16:06,600
to the wider attention especially in the

365
00:16:13,130 --> 00:16:10,260
mainstream press and I I frankly I think

366
00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:13,140
the more people who know what we call

367
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:14,430
home me up with these dirty little

368
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:16,320
secret that is that there is no

369
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:18,959
ingredients in in the in the pills

370
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:21,810
themselves the better and but a lot of

371
00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:23,310
people still don't get it don't

372
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:25,140
understand it and we'll assume that

373
00:16:30,260 --> 00:16:27,330
there's something in it something herbal

374
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:30,270
or whatever but I'm fascinated by the

375
00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:32,490
unholy alliance here the unholy link

376
00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:33,990
between the homeopaths and the

377
00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:34,830
anti-vaccination

378
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:37,740
Brigade it's it's it's it's a quite

379
00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:40,650
frightening really well again when you

380
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:43,380
talk to these people are reasons come

381
00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:46,950
out for example home the chap whose name

382
00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:48,390
escapes me at the moment you've got the

383
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:51,200
PhD and and who is pushing homeopathic

384
00:16:56,780 --> 00:16:54,210
immunization had a problem with his

385
00:16:58,760 --> 00:16:56,790
child reaction to vaccines which which

386
00:17:00,950 --> 00:16:58,770
happened regrettably arm serious ones

387
00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:00,960
are very uncommon but again they do

388
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:04,800
happen and often these people have

389
00:17:10,310 --> 00:17:07,140
either had direct experience or no

390
00:17:12,860 --> 00:17:10,320
family members that you know had several

391
00:17:16,820 --> 00:17:12,870
reactions or aching limbs or whatever

392
00:17:20,810 --> 00:17:16,830
and so there's often some there's some

393
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:20,820
rationale in in there look for what they

394
00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:23,550
believe in a safer alternative enough no

395
00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:25,920
doubt let [\h__\h] opportunity safer got

396
00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:28,080
nothing in a parity not going to give

397
00:17:34,790 --> 00:17:30,900
you several reactions or sore arms um

398
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:34,800
but of course it's not effective term

399
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:38,610
and you know that does leave the

400
00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:39,930
children that are immunized you know

401
00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:42,420
susceptible to childhood diseases which

402
00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:45,720
is still you know can kill name when I'm

403
00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:48,540
old enough to remember the infectious

404
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:50,760
disease wards at Fairfield hospital

405
00:17:55,010 --> 00:17:53,250
where we had children in iron long after

406
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:55,020
polio epidemic switch it be totally

407
00:18:00,050 --> 00:17:56,460
eliminated you know by polio

408
00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:00,060
immunization unfortunately people don't

409
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:03,900
see this young parents they don't know

410
00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:06,090
their history they don't see the

411
00:18:09,860 --> 00:18:07,710
problems of infectious disease which

412
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:09,870
have been successfully eliminated by

413
00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:13,190
immunization and often overreact to

414
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:17,580
scare stories of bowel reactions and and

415
00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:21,030
sore arms other things so it's it is

416
00:18:27,530 --> 00:18:26,040
interesting um there's also being you

417
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:27,540
know it's an interesting debate about

418
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,020
how this to address some and think there

419
00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:33,120
was a interesting article i think in

420
00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:37,260
vaccine Journal recently in which people

421
00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:39,720
had gone through and looked at i think

422
00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:42,870
an online discussion between the anti

423
00:18:48,140 --> 00:18:45,060
vaccinators and some poor public health

424
00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:48,150
people trying to give a voice of reason

425
00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:51,030
and came up with some sensible and very

426
00:18:55,730 --> 00:18:53,430
good information but you know one one

427
00:18:57,740 --> 00:18:55,740
should admit that yes there are problems

428
00:19:00,440 --> 00:18:57,750
with conventional immunization that's

429
00:19:02,780 --> 00:19:00,450
why we want no fault compensation home

430
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:02,790
and you deal and have I think we're

431
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:05,760
going to get with the Disability Act

432
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:08,880
it's going through so we've got to

433
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:10,890
accept it very really there will be

434
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:12,900
problems and we should earn that and we

435
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:14,880
should give another it's being done not

436
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:17,370
for just the patient's point of view but

437
00:19:23,660 --> 00:19:19,770
for the communities point of view we

438
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:23,670
should be open and occasionally toward

439
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:25,050
thing that happened and it is a

440
00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:27,690
responsibility of the state to look

441
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:30,780
after people affect that does happen but

442
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:32,820
it was a that's exceptionally rare and

443
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:35,400
it needs to be pointed out you know

444
00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:38,250
these are very real good that I mean

445
00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:40,110
Iration have done the fact that the

446
00:19:45,890 --> 00:19:43,590
benefits just completely outweigh the

447
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:45,900
risks by mega tubes of hundreds of

448
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,050
thousands and just remind people and

449
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:51,840
what infectious disease avila texts used

450
00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:55,010
to be before before immunizations and

451
00:19:59,930 --> 00:19:57,470
again you know treat these people

452
00:20:02,060 --> 00:19:59,940
seriously but sympathetically not just

453
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:02,070
pull them crooks and charlatans Isis

454
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:04,290
they are openly either personal history

455
00:20:12,050 --> 00:20:09,000
as to why they're anti-vaccination they

456
00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:12,060
there's often some more logically and

457
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:13,020
it's a matter of trying to be

458
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:15,890
sympathetic with that but nevertheless

459
00:20:21,170 --> 00:20:19,590
vigorously and conveying what is

460
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:21,180
complete craziness when they start

461
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:23,520
saying that the homeopathic immunization

462
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:25,770
should replace conventional immunization

463
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:27,840
that's right it's being battled

464
00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:29,730
interesting very interesting sort of

465
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:32,520
public health problem shall just how to

466
00:20:37,070 --> 00:20:34,530
counter this stuff well it's no secret

467
00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:37,080
of course the the medical profession and

468
00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:39,150
science in general doesn't hide the fact

469
00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:41,880
that there are adverse reactions to

470
00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:44,280
vaccinations there they are very rare as

471
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:46,260
you say but we're not sweeping them

472
00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:48,870
under the carpet which is interesting

473
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,230
because the term the phrase safe and

474
00:20:56,810 --> 00:20:54,480
effective is used a lot and you can

475
00:20:58,730 --> 00:20:56,820
understand why why it's being used we

476
00:21:01,250 --> 00:20:58,740
could say the same things for seatbelts

477
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:01,260
seatbelts are safe and effective every

478
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:02,010
now and then how

479
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:04,050
whether it's possible that someone could

480
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,510
get injured by the fact that they are

481
00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:08,400
wearing a seat belt and the nature of

482
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:10,020
the collision but of course the

483
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:12,300
anti-vaccination Brigade will pick up on

484
00:21:22,130 --> 00:21:14,790
the term safe and effective and use it

485
00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:22,140
to its extreme only do they do that as I

486
00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:25,620
often there is some personal story that

487
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:30,140
sort of counts that that sort of miss

488
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:34,770
representation of the evidence and we

489
00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:37,290
know that you know one first I mean even

490
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:39,510
even with legal profession I've heard my

491
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:41,970
colleagues say my god you know the

492
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:43,650
patient died when I did then I'll never

493
00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:47,730
do it again even though insects if you

494
00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:49,140
look at the statistics or what they were

495
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:51,240
doing and you look better to what they

496
00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:53,730
were doing that it's an unreasonable

497
00:21:56,510 --> 00:21:55,470
reaction but it's a very human one yeah

498
00:21:58,670 --> 00:21:56,520
and I think this is a lot of the

499
00:22:00,500 --> 00:21:58,680
problems we're dealing with I think

500
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:00,510
you're absolutely right of course a lot

501
00:22:06,650 --> 00:22:03,710
of people who have become converts

502
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:06,660
converted we might say to these sort of

503
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:09,210
things like homeopathy have been wooed

504
00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:11,850
over because of personal tragedy may be

505
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:14,990
in in their own history but what I would

506
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:18,690
ask you now is what can our listeners do

507
00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:21,120
to aid our cause in in this sort of

508
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:26,390
battle well clearly at a personal level

509
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:29,490
one needs to get facts about

510
00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:31,650
immunization the risks and the benefits

511
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:33,960
and make sure that one of those children

512
00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:37,310
and ones grandparents are immunized

513
00:22:42,650 --> 00:22:40,590
appropriately as I say it's it's still

514
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:42,660
probably the most valuable public health

515
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:44,610
intervention we do have in terms of

516
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:47,850
preventing disease often be although in

517
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:49,530
the grandparents to get about this that

518
00:22:54,860 --> 00:22:52,410
very they may become susceptible to

519
00:22:57,260 --> 00:22:54,870
friends or in the manor and the friends

520
00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:57,270
of exclamation and the overlay use is

521
00:23:04,340 --> 00:22:59,250
very good just as childhood immunization

522
00:23:06,890 --> 00:23:04,350
is crucial so you know understand what's

523
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:06,900
there make sure that your boosters are

524
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:10,260
up to date and if you do have been

525
00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:14,880
indeed I did have a relative who was a

526
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:15,660
bit

527
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:17,910
used by the anti-vaccination people

528
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:22,290
while crickets in a Steiner school which

529
00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:24,210
is unreasonable but a lot of appearance

530
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:26,040
where anti-vaccination a lot of the

531
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:29,760
mothers were again it's just a matter of

532
00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:32,450
trying to give them the facts and also

533
00:23:36,860 --> 00:23:35,220
reminding them of what infectious

534
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:36,870
disease if I like of what we've been

535
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:39,180
cough is like if your child gets it's a

536
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:41,760
very very distressing and uncertainties

537
00:23:46,790 --> 00:23:44,310
again kind of a problem is that the

538
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:46,800
current generation of mothers haven't

539
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:49,260
seen infectious diseases and therefore

540
00:23:54,050 --> 00:23:52,080
it's easy to fill them to distort their

541
00:23:57,020 --> 00:23:54,060
judgment of risk benefits because they

542
00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:57,030
don't see the risks occasionally I'll

543
00:24:00,680 --> 00:23:58,110
sorry that is that we can see the

544
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:00,690
benefits and occasionally as I say they

545
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:03,510
hear from their friends others the risks

546
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:05,850
so yeah we just got to keep that story

547
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:07,650
out there and I mean it's ironic that

548
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:09,860
the more successful we've become with

549
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:12,360
immunization and decreasing Charles

550
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:15,120
infectious diseases the harder it is to

551
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:17,520
actually convince people but it's still

552
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:20,400
absolutely crucial absolutely John for

553
00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:22,890
all of us that is job brawlers well dr.

554
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:24,860
ken harvey thank you very much for your

555
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:28,290
continuing efforts and let's hope let's

556
00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:32,370
hope that the homeopathy plus website

557
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:35,910
our toe the line I think there's going

558
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:38,460
to be another chapter in this story so

559
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:40,860
we will wait in anticipation to see what

560
00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:42,390
friendship bill is going to come up with

561
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:03,680
in a world where the truth is a matter

562
00:25:11,539 --> 00:25:06,950
your messages are a scene for beyond the

563
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:14,869
and reason is sidelined for magical

564
00:25:26,970 --> 00:25:19,920
oh please read their stand between the

565
00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:26,980
truth what date is it 787 thing this is

566
00:25:29,460 --> 00:25:28,300
impressive it's these artists

567
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:29,470
impressions they're not their

568
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:31,500
photographs of Chinese anthem it's not

569
00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:34,690
we are not well received good god we're

570
00:25:38,430 --> 00:25:36,520
fully don't discuss cryptozoology on the

571
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:38,440
show very often because we don't know

572
00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:40,480
anything about how the truth the price

573
00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:42,280
gets lower and lower and lower and then

574
00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:44,200
he hits a ceiling it's a ceiling for the

575
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:48,760
room below skeptic to the cave and Moses

576
00:25:58,650 --> 00:25:50,950
has gifted society find us on iTunes or

577
00:26:03,710 --> 00:25:58,660
you know don't now it's time for dr.

578
00:26:08,910 --> 00:26:06,240
hello listeners and welcome to dr.

579
00:26:10,919 --> 00:26:08,920
Reggie reports well there has been some

580
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:10,929
big news in Australia recently regarding

581
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:12,910
the funding and regulation of

582
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:15,090
complementary and alternative medicine

583
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:17,650
the australian government has decided to

584
00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:19,690
make several important changes which

585
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:22,270
will mean cams are less funded in

586
00:26:26,430 --> 00:26:24,490
Australia and it's going to be stricter

587
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:26,440
to actually get them on the government

588
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:28,690
list the budget will be announced on

589
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:30,940
Tuesday in this country and the

590
00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:33,010
government is keen to keep it in surplus

591
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:34,840
meaning they're looking for cuts

592
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:38,050
anywhere they possibly can one of the

593
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:39,900
things I've now decided to look at is

594
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:42,490
private healthcare funding of natural

595
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:45,490
therapies now in Australia the

596
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:47,290
government doesn't directly pay for the

597
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:49,630
funding of cam but if you have private

598
00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:52,420
health insurance they do rebate up to

599
00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:54,100
about thirty percent of the cost from

600
00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:56,260
that the government will be targeting

601
00:27:00,840 --> 00:26:58,690
things such as aromatherapy ear candling

602
00:27:04,350 --> 00:27:00,850
crystal therapy flower essences

603
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:04,360
homeopathy iridology kinesiology Reiki

604
00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:06,970
and rohlfing now apparently each year

605
00:27:12,299 --> 00:27:09,190
private health companies pay out about

606
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,309
90 million dollars to natural therapists

607
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:14,320
and then the government pays back them

608
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:17,170
about 30 million dollars so if this goes

609
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:19,450
through it's going to cut off a revenue

610
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:21,520
stream of about 90 million dollars to

611
00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:24,010
alternative health practitioners and 30

612
00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:25,270
million dollars saving for the

613
00:27:29,250 --> 00:27:26,950
government but what I find interesting

614
00:27:30,990 --> 00:27:29,260
is what they consider mainstream natural

615
00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:31,000
therapies which will be unaffected

616
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:33,520
they list hear things like acupuncture

617
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:36,730
audiology chiropractic occupational

618
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:40,210
therapy physiotherapy and podiatry now I

619
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,090
wouldn't have put physiotherapy podiatry

620
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:45,840
occupational therapy in the same list as

621
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:48,970
acupuncture and chiropractic and you'll

622
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,770
also note listeners that chiropractic is

623
00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:52,480
not being targeted in this round of

624
00:27:57,930 --> 00:27:55,270
funding cuts however maybe it will be on

625
00:28:00,180 --> 00:27:57,940
the list next time so this is really a

626
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:00,190
good move and a very good first step by

627
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:02,110
the Australian Government because the

628
00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:04,030
belief has been just the fact that the

629
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,070
government funds this stuff even though

630
00:28:10,830 --> 00:28:08,080
they only fund it to thirty percent it

631
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:10,840
then lends it legitimacy and therefore

632
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:13,450
people think it works so one of the

633
00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:15,520
arguments that can people often use is

634
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:18,070
well why it doesn't chiropractic work it

635
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:20,170
must work because you can get a rebate

636
00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:22,570
through your health fund so at least now

637
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:23,980
they won't be able to say this for

638
00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:26,260
aromatherapy ear candling crystal

639
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:28,030
therapy flower essences and homeopathy

640
00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:31,810
as if they ever worked anyway personally

641
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:33,580
I'm very pleased to see that ear

642
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:35,410
candling will no longer be funded by the

643
00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:38,710
government and also homeopathy so also

644
00:28:44,550 --> 00:28:41,560
on cam more news in Australia about the

645
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:44,560
way that cam is regulated now in this

646
00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:46,960
country we have two streams of drugs

647
00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:48,700
that are on the government list of drugs

648
00:28:54,410 --> 00:28:51,460
there is one called registered and these

649
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:54,420
include things like pharmaceutical drugs

650
00:29:00,120 --> 00:28:58,090
antibiotics vaccines anything that for

651
00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:00,130
which has had to go through strict

652
00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:02,800
clinical trials and development before

653
00:29:08,430 --> 00:29:05,560
it can be registered so basically this

654
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:08,440
is drugs that work then we have a stream

655
00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:11,650
of medicines or therapy is called listed

656
00:29:18,650 --> 00:29:14,740
so they include things like supplements

657
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:18,660
complementary therapies cough medicine

658
00:29:26,730 --> 00:29:23,500
vitamins some bark flower remedies ear

659
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:26,740
candles are also on that list yay now

660
00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:29,290
late last year the government did or for

661
00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:30,430
the last couple of years actually

662
00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:32,950
they've been doing a transparency review

663
00:29:36,420 --> 00:29:34,780
in the into the way that our drug

664
00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:36,430
regulator works and they're called the

665
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:39,960
TGA and part of the outcomes from that

666
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:42,970
transparency review was that there is a

667
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:44,350
section in that

668
00:29:48,810 --> 00:29:46,210
website where you can actually put in

669
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:48,820
free text and this seemed to be an area

670
00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:50,410
where a lot of people were putting stuff

671
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:52,600
that perhaps wasn't true and perhaps

672
00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:55,510
couldn't be supported by evidence and

673
00:30:00,960 --> 00:29:58,120
previously in support of a listed

674
00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:00,970
product you could offer an expert report

675
00:30:06,299 --> 00:30:03,910
from an expert so you could say that the

676
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:06,309
evidence to support my product is that

677
00:30:12,029 --> 00:30:09,730
expert blah blah says that it works now

678
00:30:15,299 --> 00:30:12,039
previously there's been no definition by

679
00:30:17,789 --> 00:30:15,309
the TGA our drug regulator of what

680
00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:17,799
constitutes an expert and so this is

681
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:20,440
about to change they have now drafted

682
00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:23,380
rules specifying how an expert report

683
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,780
can be completed and also who qualifies

684
00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:28,720
as an expert and also what types of

685
00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:30,700
drugs they can assess for a

686
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:32,590
complementary product to get listed on

687
00:30:38,010 --> 00:30:35,380
the government list so according to the

688
00:30:40,649 --> 00:30:38,020
draft paper an expert must have a

689
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:40,659
three-year health related degree plus

690
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:42,970
either five years experience as a

691
00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:45,730
practitioner researcher or advisor or

692
00:30:51,299 --> 00:30:49,600
must have a PhD in a related field now

693
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:51,309
this of course is going to seriously

694
00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:53,080
limit the amount of people that can

695
00:30:58,680 --> 00:30:55,750
write reports as an expert for

696
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:58,690
supporting camp products and this means

697
00:31:03,779 --> 00:31:01,120
that the can proponents are very unhappy

698
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:03,789
in fact the head of the complementary

699
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:05,470
health care council said the proposed

700
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:08,320
rules were very worrying and if adopted

701
00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:11,890
would kill off the industry basically

702
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:13,870
they said they won't be able to find

703
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:16,150
people to write these reports and even

704
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:17,890
if they could they'd have to pay them

705
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:20,320
and they couldn't afford to do that she

706
00:31:24,539 --> 00:31:22,809
says that for larger companies who are

707
00:31:26,250 --> 00:31:24,549
forced to back the efficacy of their

708
00:31:28,470 --> 00:31:26,260
products they might be able to afford it

709
00:31:30,860 --> 00:31:28,480
but smaller companies would struggle to

710
00:31:34,409 --> 00:31:30,870
be able to afford to pay an expert

711
00:31:36,810 --> 00:31:34,419
diddams the TGA is actually taking

712
00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:36,820
submissions on these guidelines so you

713
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:38,740
can actually write in and make comment

714
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:41,289
now the cam industry has really got us

715
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:43,090
back up about this and I know that they

716
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:44,770
have already made appointments to go and

717
00:31:49,020 --> 00:31:46,450
visit the minister to put their case

718
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:49,030
forward because they don't want to have

719
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:50,890
to pay for experts and even if they did

720
00:31:57,510 --> 00:31:55,059
the real issue here is would an expert

721
00:31:58,290 --> 00:31:57,520
right in support of their products I

722
00:32:00,840 --> 00:31:58,300
mean many

723
00:32:03,330 --> 00:32:00,850
these listed medicines do not have

724
00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:03,340
efficacy and so they'd have to try and

725
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:06,400
find an expert that would say that it

726
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:08,830
worked if it didn't work the only thing

727
00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:10,690
I can see that might be potentially bad

728
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:13,630
about this idea is that it does open the

729
00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:16,510
door for experts that qualify in terms

730
00:32:21,690 --> 00:32:19,390
of these criteria however may not

731
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:21,700
necessarily be evidence-based for

732
00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:23,200
example a chiropractor has a

733
00:32:26,670 --> 00:32:25,150
health-related degree and if they have

734
00:32:28,770 --> 00:32:26,680
worked in chiropractic for more than

735
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:28,780
five years they would be considered an

736
00:32:34,590 --> 00:32:32,260
expert for example isaac golden who's a

737
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:34,600
very famous homeopath in australia in

738
00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:36,910
particular for citing the cuban study

739
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:39,340
all the time as evidence for the fact

740
00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:41,590
that homeopathy works well he actually

741
00:32:45,810 --> 00:32:43,540
has a PhD from the Royal Melbourne

742
00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:45,820
Institute of Technology but I think in

743
00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:47,920
the most part this is going to create a

744
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:49,780
huge headache for the complementary

745
00:32:54,090 --> 00:32:52,390
medicine industry and as reflected on by

746
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,100
the head of the complementary health

747
00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:56,080
care council this might kill off the

748
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,890
industry well we'll see what happens

749
00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:00,880
submissions are being taken until the

750
00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:02,980
twenty fifth of may and in the history

751
00:33:07,290 --> 00:33:05,500
of the TGA they tend to put forward

752
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:07,300
these proposals but they don't tend to

753
00:33:12,150 --> 00:33:09,910
often follow them up as was evidenced by

754
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:12,160
the huge report they did into increasing

755
00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:14,320
transparency of their activities and

756
00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:16,390
then much of the recommendations that

757
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:18,040
were made in that report they didn't

758
00:33:22,020 --> 00:33:20,260
endorse and they didn't take up so we'll

759
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:22,030
have to wait and see but in any case

760
00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:25,180
this is a very good news for public

761
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:27,160
health and protection of the public and

762
00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:31,210
also increasing regulation of therapies

763
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:33,520
that probably don't work and until next

764
00:33:44,150 --> 00:33:41,360
dr. Rachel Dunlop is one of Australia's

765
00:33:45,549 --> 00:33:44,160
foremost media commentators in matters

766
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,559
concerning so-called alternative

767
00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:48,120
medicine she has appeared on national

768
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:51,900
radio and national television dr. AG is

769
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:54,210
available for interviews and you can

770
00:34:07,490 --> 00:33:58,170
contact her at Rachel at skeptic zone

771
00:34:11,619 --> 00:34:07,500
dot TV hey Kenny oh hi Tom my status

772
00:34:14,030 --> 00:34:11,629
Park yeah yes 8 weather unlock a unicorn

773
00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:14,040
unicorn there are no such things as

774
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,220
unicorns silly yes there is no there

775
00:34:22,580 --> 00:34:19,440
isn't hey guys what are you arguing

776
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:22,590
about tom thinks unicorns are real think

777
00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:25,260
so our let's look us up in the skeptics

778
00:34:30,139 --> 00:34:28,020
dictionary the what how can we do this

779
00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:30,149
in this park there is the computer here

780
00:34:33,889 --> 00:34:31,800
you guys probably don't know about the

781
00:34:36,770 --> 00:34:33,899
skeptics dictionary app available now

782
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:36,780
for iPhone iPad and iPod touch in the

783
00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:40,260
app store Wow cool the app lets you

784
00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:42,120
access all of the great skeptics

785
00:34:46,850 --> 00:34:43,830
dictionary articles when you're on the

786
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:46,860
go here let me look up unicorns sound

787
00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:49,770
cool Kenny prepare to be proven wrong it

788
00:34:55,850 --> 00:34:52,080
says here the Unicorn is a creature from

789
00:34:57,350 --> 00:34:55,860
fables aha actually I see now that

790
00:35:00,140 --> 00:34:57,360
someone just dumped their ice cream cone

791
00:35:05,020 --> 00:35:00,150
on that horse's head thanks skeptics

792
00:35:12,910 --> 00:35:09,710
here's Maynard spooky action at a

793
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:15,040
I'm just in a small corridor with

794
00:35:18,490 --> 00:35:16,310
someone who's had a very interesting

795
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:18,500
scientific adventure recently who have

796
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:21,200
we here my name's Ian Bryce I'm the

797
00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:22,580
chief investigator with Australian

798
00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:24,670
skeptics and you've been to look at a

799
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:27,260
cold fusion devices what it used to be

800
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:28,850
cool but it's called something else now

801
00:35:33,550 --> 00:35:30,890
yes these days it's low energy nuclear

802
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:33,560
reactions but it's really the same thing

803
00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:35,450
now is it an example of any of them

804
00:35:39,070 --> 00:35:37,430
working anywhere even in the lab even in

805
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:39,080
some CERN device even in a nuclear

806
00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:41,690
reactor there are many many claims of

807
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,980
them working there's quite a group of

808
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:44,720
scientists basically on the fringe of

809
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:47,030
the academic community who claim to have

810
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:49,280
achieved it but none of these have

811
00:35:52,990 --> 00:35:51,170
really been verified or reproduced by

812
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:53,000
other people so they had noticed

813
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:54,530
scientists are saying that there's no

814
00:35:57,940 --> 00:35:55,850
evidence for it at all that's all the

815
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:57,950
pipe dream so how did you find yourself

816
00:36:03,610 --> 00:36:01,520
in mullum bimby was it well dick smith

817
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:03,620
was approached to invest in it by an

818
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:06,320
australian representative and basically

819
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:08,450
he's been here he's asked to investigate

820
00:36:13,570 --> 00:36:11,030
to invest in many things but in this

821
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:13,580
case they had scientists saying that it

822
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:16,400
was real and so dick felt that he he

823
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:17,810
said he would invest if that was the

824
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:19,370
case but he's caught on Australian

825
00:36:23,470 --> 00:36:21,290
skeptics to look into it so that's why I

826
00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:23,480
was involved and what did you see in the

827
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:25,550
video and how did you finally work out

828
00:36:31,090 --> 00:36:27,320
the perhaps things weren't quite right

829
00:36:34,210 --> 00:36:31,100
in the video well there's a lot of

830
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:34,220
things that didn't look right but the

831
00:36:38,020 --> 00:36:36,290
main one was that on the technical side

832
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:38,030
we've got this copper device which is

833
00:36:41,890 --> 00:36:39,920
claimed to come to contain the nuclear

834
00:36:43,540 --> 00:36:41,900
reaction and its water going in the

835
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:43,550
bottom and steam coming at the top and

836
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:45,650
it's easy to calculate the power that is

837
00:36:50,530 --> 00:36:48,410
producing and is connected to a blue box

838
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:50,540
which has then got a power lead to the

839
00:36:54,610 --> 00:36:52,910
PowerPoint the power in the poweredge is

840
00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:54,620
being measured was about 300 watts yet

841
00:37:00,070 --> 00:36:56,390
there was about 3,000 watts of steam

842
00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:00,080
coming out so that's why the scientists

843
00:37:03,970 --> 00:37:02,030
they were able to examine every pipe and

844
00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:03,980
every wire on the device couldn't find

845
00:37:07,330 --> 00:37:05,540
any explanation for this excess power

846
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:07,340
but I felt that it had something to do

847
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,690
with the blue box because the blue box

848
00:37:13,390 --> 00:37:10,400
wasn't really necessary unless it was up

849
00:37:15,010 --> 00:37:13,400
to no good and how did you figure out

850
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:15,020
what might be one of the possible

851
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:16,910
answers as to why you were getting a lot

852
00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:18,890
more power out them is going in which I

853
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:20,750
believe violates a few laws of physics

854
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:22,370
doesn't it that's right the first law of

855
00:37:27,090 --> 00:37:25,040
thermodynamics says that the power into

856
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:27,100
something equals the power

857
00:37:30,820 --> 00:37:29,330
conservation of power and in this case

858
00:37:34,090 --> 00:37:30,830
that appeared to have a very large power

859
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:34,100
gain which indicated to the siders that

860
00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:35,810
there was a real nuclear reaction going

861
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:37,460
on and I understand that at the end of

862
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:39,050
it they took the water down the drain as

863
00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:40,400
well which if there was a real nuclear

864
00:37:42,910 --> 00:37:41,990
reaction going on that might be

865
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:42,920
something you want to do in a hurry

866
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:44,240
that's right it would be classified as

867
00:37:47,830 --> 00:37:46,160
nuclear waste there was another bad sign

868
00:37:50,410 --> 00:37:47,840
now the thing is you're allowed to stand

869
00:37:52,359 --> 00:37:50,420
by it while its operating whereas they

870
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:52,369
would be something producing all those

871
00:37:56,830 --> 00:37:54,050
kilowatts of power the radiation would

872
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:56,840
be deadly hmm but what really got me on

873
00:38:02,020 --> 00:37:58,490
to it was our magicians in the skeptics

874
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:02,030
said that a scientist is usually easy to

875
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:03,050
fool because he looks for hidden

876
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:04,340
apparatus and they were no hidden

877
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:06,170
apparatus in this case it's usually

878
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:08,510
something in full view that's doing

879
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:10,310
something you don't expect it so it

880
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:11,510
actually came to me in the middle of the

881
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:13,460
night that he was misusing the earth

882
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:16,160
lead to fun elaine extra power so were

883
00:38:20,980 --> 00:38:17,930
you awake thinking about it we're having

884
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:20,990
a lucid dream did like some news from

885
00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:22,730
Xanadu come to you I mean how did you

886
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:23,900
cad you get this idea what were you

887
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:25,970
doing at that time and i well I was

888
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:28,970
trying to sleep and I was so half asleep

889
00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:31,010
I wasn't deliberately thinking about it

890
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:32,420
but I guess another part of my brain was

891
00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:34,310
ticking over and I came to me in a flash

892
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:37,190
at 353 am so I left out of bed and went

893
00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:38,960
to the computer and reread all of the

894
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:40,790
test reports to see if there's some

895
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:42,170
evidence in what the scientists had

896
00:38:46,330 --> 00:38:44,630
observed all the other different 15

897
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:46,340
scientists it turned out was supporting

898
00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:47,570
saying that there appeared to be

899
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,340
something in it and I found that there's

900
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:51,680
actually no observation which disproved

901
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:54,650
my theory so it was a valid hypothesis

902
00:38:58,900 --> 00:38:57,170
so how did it go when you've sent

903
00:39:00,520 --> 00:38:58,910
information to the people that were

904
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:00,530
there in the room did anyone think that

905
00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:02,990
maybe this was possible well I thought

906
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:04,609
the scientists would be delighted and

907
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:06,650
say are we and you've exposed how we

908
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:09,050
were tricked thank you so much but none

909
00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:10,250
of it because it didn't make them look

910
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:13,160
too good so the most i got out of them

911
00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:16,880
was a well i suppose it's possible so

912
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:18,200
what is now what is the state of play

913
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:21,290
with that low energy fusion device but

914
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:23,630
when we published out earth wire

915
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:26,090
hypothesis we originally called it a

916
00:39:29,859 --> 00:39:28,400
possible accident accidental connection

917
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:29,869
in case it was an accident and dick

918
00:39:33,609 --> 00:39:31,760
smith was being very cautious but since

919
00:39:35,830 --> 00:39:33,619
then the reaction from rossi was so bad

920
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:35,840
he called us all sorts of sort of names

921
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:37,890
he calls dick smith the

922
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:40,560
puppet and me the dick smith the snake i

923
00:39:44,540 --> 00:39:42,660
should say me the puppet snake look you

924
00:39:46,970 --> 00:39:44,550
even called a smelly wombat nearly one

925
00:39:49,310 --> 00:39:46,980
back and Ozzy roadkill that's kind of

926
00:39:51,350 --> 00:39:49,320
cool so that that confirmed to us that

927
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:51,360
it wasn't genuine because if a rusty was

928
00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:53,010
genuine he'd be in line for a Nobel

929
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:55,470
Prize not far down the track and I can't

930
00:39:59,900 --> 00:39:57,990
imagine a Nobel Prize winner using terms

931
00:40:02,140 --> 00:39:59,910
like that that confirmed to us that it's

932
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,150
most likely a scam so what has seen

933
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:04,560
overseas is he getting more investors

934
00:40:09,830 --> 00:40:06,210
overseas is he going forward with it

935
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:09,840
overseas well he claims that he sold a

936
00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:11,700
number of items but he's unable to name

937
00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:13,470
anyone who's bought one so we suspect he

938
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:14,700
hasn't sold any because they'd quickly

939
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:16,530
find out it didn't work but there's a

940
00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:20,160
constant stream of franchisees going to

941
00:40:24,830 --> 00:40:21,990
it people who want to get the rights to

942
00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:24,840
say Australia or the USA or New Zealand

943
00:40:28,850 --> 00:40:27,180
or something and all of these people

944
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:28,860
hope to make money out of it and I

945
00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:30,330
suspect that some of them don't really

946
00:40:33,350 --> 00:40:31,740
care whether it works or not as long as

947
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:33,360
they can convince someone else that it

948
00:40:37,850 --> 00:40:35,370
works and that's the COO as their place

949
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:37,860
in the pyramid now actually speaking of

950
00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:39,570
pyramids you said that whenever like an

951
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:41,220
extraordinary claim comes forward like

952
00:40:44,930 --> 00:40:43,530
this it's the three-legged stool you

953
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:44,940
want to explain what that is to people

954
00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:46,710
out there that encounter any claim that

955
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:48,990
seems a bit unusual yes that's a test I

956
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:51,090
devised for claims on the edges of

957
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,160
science and I find it very useful for

958
00:40:58,340 --> 00:40:55,440
things that skeptics investigate imagine

959
00:41:00,020 --> 00:40:58,350
as a milking stool jamilka car with

960
00:41:01,690 --> 00:41:00,030
three legs and you sit on it it'll fall

961
00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:01,700
down unless it's got three sound legs

962
00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:05,550
similarly a scientific claim needs three

963
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:07,590
things to make it sound first one is

964
00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:09,930
that there's a theory the theory doesn't

965
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:11,280
have to prove it with the theory should

966
00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:12,980
make it at least possible that it works

967
00:41:17,450 --> 00:41:15,150
secondly there should be some

968
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:17,460
measurements or evidence or observations

969
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:19,110
that is really actually happening and

970
00:41:23,690 --> 00:41:21,810
thirdly there's the credibility that the

971
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:23,700
person making the claims should be taken

972
00:41:28,430 --> 00:41:25,920
notice of and if any of these things is

973
00:41:31,070 --> 00:41:28,440
broken a stool falls down in this

974
00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:31,080
particular case I was able to point out

975
00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:32,700
that all three legs were pretty shaky

976
00:41:37,340 --> 00:41:34,350
and therefore I advise dick not to

977
00:41:39,530 --> 00:41:37,350
investigate not to invest in it but in

978
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:39,540
what about great scientists like Nikola

979
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:42,090
Tesla now I know some people think of

980
00:41:45,710 --> 00:41:43,980
his fanciful things but he was a genuine

981
00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:45,720
engineer and a scientist who did invent

982
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:47,820
real things yes isn't that an

983
00:41:51,530 --> 00:41:50,010
interesting case he invented the

984
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:51,540
alternating current system

985
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:53,310
of the distributing power which turned

986
00:41:57,650 --> 00:41:55,650
out to be far better than Edison's

987
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:57,660
direct current method because you can

988
00:42:00,890 --> 00:41:59,520
use transformers detains a voltage so if

989
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:00,900
you've done the three-legged stool test

990
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:02,370
on him around about that time he might

991
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:04,050
have failed one of those tests yes

992
00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:07,770
indeed yes the credibility when he was

993
00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:09,150
evidence with alternating current would

994
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:10,230
have stood up because he'd have working

995
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:12,510
devices and sound theory but the

996
00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:15,210
credibility would be in a bit weak which

997
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:16,620
means you would have had to seek further

998
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:18,210
evidence before making a conclusion

999
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:21,090
that's all we would say hmm ok so it is

1000
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:23,040
possible that an unusual claim could

1001
00:42:27,410 --> 00:42:24,570
sometimes be right you've just got to

1002
00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:27,420
look deeper into it yes indeed if it

1003
00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:30,420
fails a three-legged stool test then you

1004
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:33,060
should put your conclusions on hold and

1005
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:34,590
seek further evidence and perhaps wait

1006
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:36,930
till is replicated in you've harsh tower

1007
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:38,730
mellow I mean there was this way we

1008
00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:40,050
could have saved the planet we could

1009
00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:41,550
have made a lot more energy out of a

1010
00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:43,800
very little input into it and now you've

1011
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:46,260
stuffed it up for us I have indeed

1012
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:48,510
hopefully it means that the real

1013
00:42:53,390 --> 00:42:50,610
investors with real money to invest will

1014
00:42:55,550 --> 00:42:53,400
now go to something genuine something

1015
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:55,560
like concentrated solar thermal power

1016
00:42:59,600 --> 00:42:57,720
maybe they should build a trial plant in

1017
00:43:00,830 --> 00:42:59,610
New South Wales to actually get us used

1018
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:00,840
to the idea of something that we're

1019
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:03,810
going to need pretty soon now people

1020
00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:05,520
believe all sorts of things fall sorts

1021
00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:07,830
of reasons I I believe that I can walk

1022
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:09,240
into a bar and if people have enough

1023
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:11,010
drinks they'll go home with me sometimes

1024
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:13,650
it works sometimes it's a major logical

1025
00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:15,330
fallacy I believe it's either a slippery

1026
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:17,430
slope or Texas sharpshooter fallacy I'm

1027
00:43:21,470 --> 00:43:18,810
not quite sure which one it is but he'll

1028
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:21,480
we got here Carl now what was something

1029
00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:23,610
you sort of believed or were influenced

1030
00:43:27,890 --> 00:43:25,950
by as a kid and took you a while to

1031
00:43:32,660 --> 00:43:27,900
either lose or you've still got tucked

1032
00:43:35,180 --> 00:43:32,670
in the back in mind they're probably the

1033
00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:35,190
alternative health for me what did your

1034
00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:37,230
mum used to do certain things when you

1035
00:43:41,130 --> 00:43:38,790
were sick well my father turned

1036
00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:41,140
vegetarian when I was quite young and

1037
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:44,049
and then my mother took it on with gusto

1038
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:48,250
and and then just all you know leaving

1039
00:43:53,609 --> 00:43:50,410
the supplements and all this different

1040
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:53,619
things that said you react to it by as

1041
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:54,910
soon as you're a teenager and you could

1042
00:43:59,730 --> 00:43:56,730
you just went out and ate a lot of steak

1043
00:44:02,250 --> 00:43:59,740
no well a little bit for a little while

1044
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:02,260
but didn't actually reverted back and

1045
00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:05,910
after dropping down to about 70 kgs and

1046
00:44:12,180 --> 00:44:09,700
that's pretty light for me I did been

1047
00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:12,190
research and found out that maybe it's

1048
00:44:16,289 --> 00:44:14,230
not such a bad thing they meetin start

1049
00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:16,299
eating meat and put on 10k kgs in the

1050
00:44:21,690 --> 00:44:19,089
year okay so I wouldn't mind being 70

1051
00:44:25,470 --> 00:44:21,700
kilograms that'll be kind of cool but on

1052
00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:25,480
six foot three it's per year yeah but

1053
00:44:29,609 --> 00:44:27,670
although i don't mind tofu so it's a

1054
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:29,619
certain can you not eat tofu you're sick

1055
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:32,079
of that because there's soy milk that

1056
00:44:37,140 --> 00:44:35,260
really bugs you still owe you because

1057
00:44:41,039 --> 00:44:37,150
you're forced to eat it yeah I'm glad to

1058
00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:41,049
give it up now we've got someone here

1059
00:44:45,509 --> 00:44:42,910
who shares something I was interested in

1060
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:45,519
as a teenager particularly the writings

1061
00:44:50,039 --> 00:44:47,680
of Earth forget his name of the bullets

1062
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:50,049
was his name yeah and now and tell us

1063
00:44:53,220 --> 00:44:51,250
what what you enjoyed when you were

1064
00:44:57,019 --> 00:44:53,230
younger you so we thought those books

1065
00:44:59,609 --> 00:44:57,029
about Bermuda triangles and UFOs and the

1066
00:45:03,809 --> 00:44:59,619
erich von daniken worthy God's

1067
00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:03,819
astronauts Adamski George Adamski he was

1068
00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:05,049
the one who had encounters with the

1069
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:08,380
Venetians I know it wasn't familiar I ok

1070
00:45:11,339 --> 00:45:09,670
but it's good to see look erich von

1071
00:45:12,930 --> 00:45:11,349
daniken makes it come back on ancient

1072
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:12,940
aliens every once in a while he'll pop

1073
00:45:18,089 --> 00:45:15,250
up on ancient aliens that's interesting

1074
00:45:20,269 --> 00:45:18,099
we don't know that yep but I left of

1075
00:45:24,569 --> 00:45:20,279
their word when I was to a teenager in

1076
00:45:26,609 --> 00:45:24,579
can't stop making sense did you have any

1077
00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:26,619
sort of wound beliefs as a child or

1078
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:28,180
something your family put into you that

1079
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:29,529
took a while to let go of well you may

1080
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:31,450
still have as a child I believe

1081
00:45:36,830 --> 00:45:35,440
everything move every book on UFOs and

1082
00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:36,840
ghosts and

1083
00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:39,220
conspiracies and muta triangles that

1084
00:45:44,940 --> 00:45:41,740
there was in the library I got out I

1085
00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:44,950
read it and I loved charles berlitz that

1086
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:46,150
that's the name i'm looking for because

1087
00:45:49,290 --> 00:45:47,710
because i used to love that so I'm with

1088
00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:49,300
the ancient astronauts and Erich von

1089
00:45:52,890 --> 00:45:51,400
Daniken right and it's a great it's the

1090
00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:52,900
great that he turns up on ancient aliens

1091
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:55,270
now I'd he's still around still banging

1092
00:45:59,580 --> 00:45:56,770
on about him and the guy with the great

1093
00:46:02,790 --> 00:45:59,590
hair so I mean I loved it and I wished

1094
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:02,800
it was all true and well I think so I

1095
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:04,990
certainly see the appeal of its lots of

1096
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:06,880
fun I mean you do still watch those kind

1097
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:08,410
of documentaries for their fun appeal

1098
00:46:14,130 --> 00:46:11,010
yeah I do sometimes I may be a bit

1099
00:46:19,230 --> 00:46:14,140
irritated now but Leonard Nimoy in

1100
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:19,240
search of yeah I'm very um in two minds

1101
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:21,010
about the claw Laughlin and Nimoy and I

1102
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:23,050
love his voice but then on the other

1103
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:26,110
hand there's in search of those this is

1104
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:27,970
out there i recommend that you go to the

1105
00:46:32,570 --> 00:46:30,130
in search of episode that's on YouTube

1106
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:32,580
about Bigfoot and at a certain point

1107
00:46:39,570 --> 00:46:36,730
into the show there's a noise it seems

1108
00:46:41,220 --> 00:46:39,580
to come out and I'm suspecting it's it's

1109
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:41,230
William Shatner sticking his head into

1110
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:43,210
the booth blowing a raspberry but have a

1111
00:46:47,130 --> 00:46:45,250
listen to that that's a in search of

1112
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:47,140
Bigfoot and there's a very strange

1113
00:46:57,390 --> 00:46:53,530
farting noise in the background a giant

1114
00:47:00,660 --> 00:46:57,400
hairy creature part ape one man indians

1115
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:00,670
call him sasquatch they believe he is as

1116
00:47:06,180 --> 00:47:03,450
gentle as he is powerful and mysterious

1117
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:06,190
he's been seen many times in the rugged

1118
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:07,930
mountains and deep woods of the Pacific

1119
00:47:12,439 --> 00:47:10,810
Northwest the encounters have not always

1120
00:47:14,939 --> 00:47:12,449
been peaceful

1121
00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:14,949
I've examined the film many times

1122
00:47:20,339 --> 00:47:17,680
watching it forward backwards stop frame

1123
00:47:21,930 --> 00:47:20,349
measured and everything and all of the

1124
00:47:24,180 --> 00:47:21,940
anatomy of the creature is perfectly

1125
00:47:25,859 --> 00:47:24,190
consistent and it does just simply does

1126
00:47:28,140 --> 00:47:25,869
not fit with the man wearing a suit

1127
00:47:30,449 --> 00:47:28,150
William Shatner ruins everything he does

1128
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:30,459
and he wouldn't want you know Leonard to

1129
00:47:35,579 --> 00:47:31,930
have a good time I'll be successful

1130
00:47:38,009 --> 00:47:35,589
would he know I mean he had our what was

1131
00:47:40,229 --> 00:47:38,019
that cop show with the TJ hooker PJ

1132
00:47:42,209 --> 00:47:40,239
hooker that's right you haven't had any

1133
00:47:44,789 --> 00:47:42,219
more on at once oh really yes they

1134
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:44,799
actually started an episode together is

1135
00:47:49,739 --> 00:47:47,049
that on YouTube I suspect if you go and

1136
00:47:51,390 --> 00:47:49,749
look TJ hooker Nimoy and Shatner Shatner

1137
00:47:52,349 --> 00:47:51,400
anymore they worked on one episode

1138
00:47:54,299 --> 00:47:52,359
together and there's this whole thing

1139
00:47:56,279 --> 00:47:54,309
about they used to be cops together and

1140
00:47:59,130 --> 00:47:56,289
had a history all its so Star Trek now

1141
00:48:01,109 --> 00:47:59,140
season on DVD just for that yep yep

1142
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:01,119
better Heather Locklear stuff see I mean

1143
00:48:05,489 --> 00:48:03,130
see shuttin something that we enjoyed as

1144
00:48:08,819 --> 00:48:05,499
a kid we can't let go of I will never

1145
00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:08,829
let go of will in Cheddar like I'm about

1146
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:10,390
yet another skeptic table here this is a

1147
00:48:15,269 --> 00:48:12,400
heavy drinking DVD skeptic table here

1148
00:48:16,949 --> 00:48:15,279
and now as I've admitted that I believed

1149
00:48:20,099 --> 00:48:16,959
in William Shatner one arms yet I was

1150
00:48:22,739 --> 00:48:20,109
younger I still do I enjoyed the work of

1151
00:48:25,019 --> 00:48:22,749
Charles bullets the buena triangle stuff

1152
00:48:26,849 --> 00:48:25,029
erich von daniken who still powers on in

1153
00:48:28,650 --> 00:48:26,859
ancient aliens even today I will watch

1154
00:48:30,660 --> 00:48:28,660
that just to see him take a drink every

1155
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:30,670
time Eric turns up it's fantastic what

1156
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:32,170
did you believe when you were young it

1157
00:48:35,219 --> 00:48:33,640
was a bit of whew that you had trouble

1158
00:48:37,049 --> 00:48:35,229
letting go of well as you may or may not

1159
00:48:38,819 --> 00:48:37,059
know I was raised in a fundamentalist

1160
00:48:40,559 --> 00:48:38,829
Christian Church that's right i have

1161
00:48:42,989 --> 00:48:40,569
seen you here giving a talk on that and

1162
00:48:45,390 --> 00:48:42,999
that that is that is some serious tough

1163
00:48:47,130 --> 00:48:45,400
to lay on someone absolutely so one of

1164
00:48:48,930 --> 00:48:47,140
my earliest recollections is when I was

1165
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:48,940
about five years old as my my mother

1166
00:48:53,980 --> 00:48:50,890
charging into my room to chase a demon

1167
00:48:55,930 --> 00:48:53,990
off my of my bedroom window

1168
00:48:57,460 --> 00:48:55,940
no point pointing it out to me that it

1169
00:48:59,230 --> 00:48:57,470
was there and so that was part of the

1170
00:49:03,910 --> 00:48:59,240
sort of the fabric of my life up until

1171
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:03,920
was in my early 20s I suppose so so do

1172
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:05,090
you think she was doing that as a bit of

1173
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:08,210
a allegory to you to be good because

1174
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:09,830
there's demons in your room do you think

1175
00:49:12,220 --> 00:49:11,090
she generally put there was one there no

1176
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:12,230
there was as far as she was concerned

1177
00:49:15,850 --> 00:49:14,210
there was an actual demon there if you

1178
00:49:18,340 --> 00:49:15,860
asked her today she would still say that

1179
00:49:19,870 --> 00:49:18,350
there was an actual demon there so as a

1180
00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:19,880
recurrent theme throughout my life it

1181
00:49:24,910 --> 00:49:22,150
wasn't like a one-off let's try and

1182
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:24,920
impart something to my child you know a

1183
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:26,960
lesson of some description and this was

1184
00:49:33,130 --> 00:49:31,520
a real tangible I would imagine being a

1185
00:49:35,470 --> 00:49:33,140
kid in that kind of household you either

1186
00:49:37,359 --> 00:49:35,480
going to a go along with that well you

1187
00:49:39,490 --> 00:49:37,369
were just going to turn into the wildest

1188
00:49:41,050 --> 00:49:39,500
craziest crazy person ever to rebel

1189
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:41,060
against what they're saying in a certain

1190
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:43,250
age when deny that I was crazy I'm

1191
00:49:47,950 --> 00:49:46,400
possibly still AM Best well I suppose I

1192
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:47,960
was better known in the church for

1193
00:49:52,030 --> 00:49:50,450
causing trouble than not but her out of

1194
00:49:53,980 --> 00:49:52,040
that quite again quite quickly and and

1195
00:49:57,609 --> 00:49:53,990
was there actually one moment we went

1196
00:50:00,220 --> 00:49:57,619
hang on actually this isn't right yeah

1197
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:00,230
it was it was probably there was a good

1198
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:01,760
section of me that started to question

1199
00:50:05,859 --> 00:50:03,680
in great detail a lot of the things that

1200
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:05,869
being said like you know what if these

1201
00:50:12,130 --> 00:50:09,430
things are real or are they just being

1202
00:50:13,930 --> 00:50:12,140
displayed as real I did didn't get the

1203
00:50:15,849 --> 00:50:13,940
sense ever that anyone who was telling

1204
00:50:18,310 --> 00:50:15,859
people that these demons and things were

1205
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:18,320
real were ever being insincere that I

1206
00:50:22,540 --> 00:50:20,510
never ever want sanest dog I've never

1207
00:50:24,609 --> 00:50:22,550
had that impression yeah they genuinely

1208
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:24,619
believe what they did but I just didn't

1209
00:50:30,130 --> 00:50:26,510
find any evidence what was being said

1210
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:30,140
and as I got older of course and you

1211
00:50:33,820 --> 00:50:31,609
know for most of my life with denied

1212
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:33,830
scientific education and as I got older

1213
00:50:36,820 --> 00:50:35,570
you know scientific proof became

1214
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:36,830
something that was very important to me

1215
00:50:42,130 --> 00:50:40,130
and then I began to understand how easy

1216
00:50:43,570 --> 00:50:42,140
it is to convince people especially if

1217
00:50:45,070 --> 00:50:43,580
you get them at here's the right age or

1218
00:50:47,890 --> 00:50:45,080
right circumstance to convince them that

1219
00:50:49,630 --> 00:50:47,900
something isn't necessarily so yeah you

1220
00:50:51,150 --> 00:50:49,640
can convince anyone of just about

1221
00:50:53,220 --> 00:50:51,160
anything if you give them

1222
00:50:54,930 --> 00:50:53,230
the right conditions in time and now

1223
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:54,940
what is your simple evidence test you

1224
00:50:59,520 --> 00:50:57,280
use with extraordinary claims these days

1225
00:51:02,640 --> 00:50:59,530
well extraordinary claims require

1226
00:51:05,970 --> 00:51:02,650
extraordinary evidence about as simple

1227
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:05,980
as I can put it was it was something as

1228
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:07,390
a kid that user who carried through into

1229
00:51:12,510 --> 00:51:10,510
adulthood not really part of the usual

1230
00:51:13,860 --> 00:51:12,520
childhood things like no Santa Claus or

1231
00:51:16,260 --> 00:51:13,870
the Easter buddy if these are that I

1232
00:51:19,050 --> 00:51:16,270
never what parents were pretty secular

1233
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:19,060
and so you a skeptical kid like you know

1234
00:51:23,340 --> 00:51:21,490
you would like and that's not real to

1235
00:51:25,110 --> 00:51:23,350
everything yeah pretty much i don't

1236
00:51:28,290 --> 00:51:25,120
think i was particularly smart ass in

1237
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:28,300
class i was my last class I've come on

1238
00:51:31,980 --> 00:51:30,130
teacher where's your proof for that well

1239
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:31,990
I was kind of always interested in size

1240
00:51:37,410 --> 00:51:34,900
that sort of stuff but I wouldn't say I

1241
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:37,420
was really actively a skeptic goes

1242
00:51:41,610 --> 00:51:39,250
perhaps a little bit more skeptical than

1243
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:41,620
some people but not really not like I

1244
00:51:44,940 --> 00:51:43,690
have tutors at at all these to make fun

1245
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:44,950
of me in primary school cause I was

1246
00:51:49,140 --> 00:51:47,650
interested in rockets and UFOs and space

1247
00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:49,150
travel but obviously me and one other

1248
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:50,830
guy in the class and the entire primary

1249
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,420
school because guys just went into that

1250
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:54,640
Indian castle at that time yeah I was in

1251
00:52:00,300 --> 00:51:58,000
the same things space but it's dinosaurs

1252
00:52:02,550 --> 00:52:00,310
what I was younger and had you know

1253
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:02,560
interested in the moon landing it's all

1254
00:52:06,780 --> 00:52:04,390
that sort of stuff so I was always into

1255
00:52:08,430 --> 00:52:06,790
that sort of side stuff well I took

1256
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:08,440
kicked off the science for you it did

1257
00:52:13,950 --> 00:52:10,450
yeah and then I I was interested I wind

1258
00:52:16,830 --> 00:52:13,960
up doing engineering at Union yeah we do

1259
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:16,840
that sort of through career so so what

1260
00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:17,920
sort of engineering leave the

1261
00:52:22,350 --> 00:52:19,750
engineering the electric engineer

1262
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:22,360
electronic app so can you like like wire

1263
00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:24,760
up a Volkswagen it depends on where you

1264
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:26,590
want me to wire it up for tomorrow to

1265
00:52:31,590 --> 00:52:30,160
achieve your hike what about you is

1266
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:31,600
there something as a kid that carried

1267
00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:34,090
over into life milestone you know 14 my

1268
00:52:38,460 --> 00:52:36,160
best friend from primary school gave me

1269
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:38,470
a book on my I think was called

1270
00:52:42,420 --> 00:52:39,910
mysteries of the unexplained or

1271
00:52:43,980 --> 00:52:42,430
something and I don't know where

1272
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:43,990
actually believed any of its kind of

1273
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:46,000
hard to remember that fact that far but

1274
00:52:54,570 --> 00:52:52,930
I certainly didn't quite know except a

1275
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:54,580
lot of the argument the spurious

1276
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:56,470
arguments they used and accepted them as

1277
00:53:01,500 --> 00:52:59,920
mad because I didn't quite know how to

1278
00:53:02,940 --> 00:53:01,510
how to tell a good argument for a bad

1279
00:53:04,770 --> 00:53:02,950
one so I suppose it kind of the

1280
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:04,780
excitement of all these unknown universe

1281
00:53:08,580 --> 00:53:06,640
is opening up to is that part of it I

1282
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:08,590
mean for me that I mean the possibility

1283
00:53:13,410 --> 00:53:11,410
of what if often to me Trump's actual

1284
00:53:15,390 --> 00:53:13,420
evidence I've got to say if something is

1285
00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:15,400
an interesting concept I'll kind of go

1286
00:53:18,510 --> 00:53:17,020
with it a certain way despite the

1287
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:18,520
evidence just because of the imaginative

1288
00:53:23,460 --> 00:53:21,430
adventure involved possibly but I think

1289
00:53:25,650 --> 00:53:23,470
mostly it was just there are interesting

1290
00:53:29,580 --> 00:53:25,660
stories they were fun and this is one

1291
00:53:32,090 --> 00:53:29,590
that sticks out particularly no they all

1292
00:53:34,410 --> 00:53:32,100
but it all sort of blended together I

1293
00:53:37,170 --> 00:53:34,420
yeah I do remember that i didn't i

1294
00:53:38,820 --> 00:53:37,180
didn't believe the UFOs stuff i was but

1295
00:53:41,940 --> 00:53:38,830
at the time i was a big science fiction

1296
00:53:44,580 --> 00:53:41,950
fan master Lam you if UFOs never really

1297
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:44,590
caught my imagination I just thought nah

1298
00:53:49,020 --> 00:53:46,960
not interesting enough so you think

1299
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:49,030
because of your basic work knowledge of

1300
00:53:51,180 --> 00:53:50,170
science that you were getting from some

1301
00:53:53,010 --> 00:53:51,190
of the science fiction books you're

1302
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:53,020
reading it you just thought it's just so

1303
00:53:58,380 --> 00:53:54,610
not possible it doesn't enter the

1304
00:54:00,930 --> 00:53:58,390
reality watch a lot of Star Trek and I

1305
00:54:03,980 --> 00:54:00,940
thought why would aliens come here in

1306
00:54:06,090 --> 00:54:03,990
the UFOs and do essentially nothing

1307
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:06,100
there's so many mortgaging things to do

1308
00:54:10,020 --> 00:54:08,620
on the earth maybe they're doing nothing

1309
00:54:12,060 --> 00:54:10,030
because what's that law they have on

1310
00:54:13,740 --> 00:54:12,070
Star Trek the prime directive the prime

1311
00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:13,750
directive is why the aliens aren't doing

1312
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:15,310
anything Oh clearly if you're seeing

1313
00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:16,570
them they're violating the prime

1314
00:54:19,890 --> 00:54:18,430
directive so that they'll eat there at

1315
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:19,900
least not taking their loss particularly

1316
00:54:24,310 --> 00:54:21,470
seriously

1317
00:54:25,930 --> 00:54:24,320
he knows his stuff I'm just leaning all

1318
00:54:28,810 --> 00:54:25,940
over the table here risking knocking

1319
00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:28,820
over wine and who we got here Jessica

1320
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:30,440
now what did you believe is a kid that

1321
00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:32,090
was a little bit unusual that you might

1322
00:54:42,430 --> 00:54:38,420
have carried into life well I remember

1323
00:54:45,580 --> 00:54:42,440
it was the 70s it was the 70s and there

1324
00:54:47,710 --> 00:54:45,590
were drugs involved well they might have

1325
00:54:48,820 --> 00:54:47,720
well I was too young and here's

1326
00:54:50,620 --> 00:54:48,830
something for you listens out there do

1327
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:50,630
you know today group of goats the

1328
00:54:58,660 --> 00:54:53,300
collective noun is a trip a trip of

1329
00:55:02,200 --> 00:54:58,670
goats and now back to our program it was

1330
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:02,210
back to our program it was the 70s I was

1331
00:55:08,050 --> 00:55:05,090
in primary school and the thing that had

1332
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:08,060
a great deal of traction then was uri

1333
00:55:12,849 --> 00:55:11,450
geller and spoon bending I saw you

1334
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:12,859
regular at the Civic Theatre in New

1335
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,690
Castle with my mum the radio station was

1336
00:55:18,310 --> 00:55:16,640
giving away tickets also what year was

1337
00:55:20,109 --> 00:55:18,320
that well that would have been around at

1338
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:20,119
the same time on the same tour and I was

1339
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:23,210
like mesmerised by him bundled it bored

1340
00:55:25,839 --> 00:55:24,530
because he didn't have enough tricks I

1341
00:55:28,300 --> 00:55:25,849
was used to seeing magicians with more

1342
00:55:30,609 --> 00:55:28,310
tricks in here and oh so you knew he was

1343
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,619
a magician no no no i didn't i just i

1344
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:32,240
thought it was a mystical guide that

1345
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:33,710
could do stuff but he just didn't have

1346
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:36,530
enough acts and he's you know yeah well

1347
00:55:42,730 --> 00:55:39,410
i suppose as 11 and 12 year olds i mean

1348
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:42,740
i never saw him a bomb but kids at

1349
00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:45,170
school were really into him and took him

1350
00:55:48,430 --> 00:55:47,089
at face value they probably also would

1351
00:55:54,370 --> 00:55:48,440
have been into the show come through

1352
00:55:56,770 --> 00:55:54,380
with the Carradine yeah yeah yeah so

1353
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:56,780
that's that's the thing i remember being

1354
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:01,440
the great talking point it didn't really

1355
00:56:04,819 --> 00:56:03,510
stick with me but I did remember him so

1356
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:04,829
that when I got got involved in the

1357
00:56:08,839 --> 00:56:07,050
skeptics years and years later and found

1358
00:56:11,540 --> 00:56:08,849
out all about uri geller and you know

1359
00:56:14,839 --> 00:56:11,550
how he did it that was that was great it

1360
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:14,849
was like all great okay so I was fully

1361
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:17,010
justified in not taking much notice of

1362
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:18,960
him look there are still some people I

1363
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:21,270
have discussions with that think he's

1364
00:56:25,010 --> 00:56:22,890
been hard done by and they are come

1365
00:56:26,359 --> 00:56:25,020
against the work of james randi for

1366
00:56:29,630 --> 00:56:26,369
exposing you've been saying how dare

1367
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:29,640
James do that too to mr. Geller who is

1368
00:56:35,390 --> 00:56:32,940
of good intentions well i don't know i

1369
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:35,400
think mr. Geller has done fairly well

1370
00:56:41,150 --> 00:56:39,210
out of things so my withers are unrung

1371
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:41,160
did you ever take his stop the clock

1372
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:42,569
test that's where you could go onto the

1373
00:56:47,059 --> 00:56:44,970
internet look at a clock that was inside

1374
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:47,069
us safe and if you tried hard enough you

1375
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:49,380
can stop the clock no I didn't do that

1376
00:56:54,589 --> 00:56:52,410
one but um once it's a joke I heard him

1377
00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:54,599
on the radio I think Clive Robertson had

1378
00:56:58,760 --> 00:56:56,880
had him on the radio at once and it was

1379
00:57:00,530 --> 00:56:58,770
you know get out your old watch that

1380
00:57:04,190 --> 00:57:00,540
isn't working put it in there I put it

1381
00:57:05,809 --> 00:57:04,200
on the radio and shout work at it well I

1382
00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:05,819
sort of scrambled around for an old

1383
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:09,510
watch got out the case before didn't

1384
00:57:13,250 --> 00:57:10,890
have time to take it out of the case put

1385
00:57:14,990 --> 00:57:13,260
the case on the radio because i was i

1386
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:15,000
just wanted to do it as a joke and just

1387
00:57:19,130 --> 00:57:17,490
just just prove that my watch wasn't

1388
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:19,140
going to work whatever Uri Geller said

1389
00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:21,690
anyway so we're through this pallava

1390
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:23,910
opened the case and my watch wasn't even

1391
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:27,089
in the case so what I felt like a fool

1392
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:28,890
that's amazing I tried it once who won

1393
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:30,690
those vibrating egg things and it still

1394
00:57:34,460 --> 00:57:31,890
didn't work that's because I didn't have

1395
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:34,470
a battery in it that would that would

1396
00:57:55,050 --> 00:57:52,830
hello on our needle on solo scoffs of

1397
00:57:57,420 --> 00:57:55,060
dick moment when Tyrion at low so now to

1398
00:58:02,010 --> 00:57:57,430
skeptics on for weeds and swap and katie

1399
00:58:19,660 --> 00:58:02,020
schneider a meeting from RC Connor

1400
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:21,549
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1401
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:23,540
son oh boy that was a bit of a tough

1402
00:58:29,470 --> 00:58:27,530
experience dr. a g-good was great

1403
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:29,480
lessness is the way her face goes red at

1404
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:31,910
certain displays and you know she wants

1405
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:33,290
to say something but she doesn't and you

1406
00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:35,690
know that there's a low-level cold fish

1407
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:38,510
and reaction going on inside it but are

1408
00:58:42,220 --> 00:58:40,130
coming up in the next few weeks on the

1409
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:42,230
skeptic zone will have some stories from

1410
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:44,960
our adventures here today at the

1411
00:58:49,420 --> 00:58:47,839
mind-body wallet festival but now I

1412
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:49,430
think we all deserve a nice Chinese

1413
00:58:53,650 --> 00:58:51,049
dinner so we'll race off and have that

1414
00:58:59,970 --> 00:58:53,660
and we'll hope to hope to have your

1415
00:59:07,359 --> 00:59:02,380
you've been listening to the skeptic

1416
00:59:11,140 --> 00:59:07,369
zone visit her website at www skeptics